Transcript 0:00 Talk to me. Information, news, and entertainment on demand. WS Radio.com [on-hold music] 0:13 Welcome to The Peggy Smedley Show, the voice of IoT in our connected world, with your host, Peggy Smedley. [on-hold music] Hello, listeners, and welcome back to The Peggy Smedley Show. 0:25 My first guest today leads the technical design and deployment of IoT security solutions primarily for the connected car, smart cities, industrial, and other IoT verticals. 0:37 He has led the implementation of several connected car and smart city solutions and has worked with car OEMs from across the globe. 0:45 Please welcome Senthil Ramakrishnan, leader member of technical staff at AT&T Internet of Things organization. Senthil, welcome to the show. Uh, thanks for having me, uh, Peggy. It's a pleasure. 1:00 Well, we're delighted to have you on. Uh, we've been talking all morning today about security and things like that and what's been happening, and I know that you know it way better than I do. 1:10 So let's start, though, talking about how companies can actually talk about edge to edge, because I think that's a great way to talk about a security, how they can create a, I think an approach for edge to edge security as part of their digital transformation. 1:26 Because I think when we talk about security, everybody kind of gets lost in a lot of different areas. 1:31 And I think when we talk right now, there's so much happening when we talk about digital transformation to the cloud and the edge, but I think that's a perfect place to start this morning. Absolutely, Peggy. 1:44 That, that, that's very true. So, you know, the way we approach it here at AT&T is, uh, you know, by defining a multilayered security strategy or a framework almost, right? 1:53 We've taken, uh, uh, the IoT ecosystem itself and then broken it down into, uh, different layers that we can manage and secure. 2:03 Um, w-w-- you know, we'll talk about each of the layers, but essentially the strategy behind this is that we take each layer, independently secure it, but then also allow some collaborative security between these layers so that when you stack all the layers together, you get a end-to-end, uh, secure system, right? 2:21 So, so what we've done is essentially four layers. Uh, the first layer being the endpoint or the IoT device itself that is, uh, actually collecting the data. 2:30 The second layer is the connectivity layer or the network that is carrying the data that the devices have collected. And the third layer is the application layer, where the data is stored and processed. 2:41 Now, these three layers essentially make up any IoT system, right? The device, the network, and the back end. 2:46 And, uh, uh, you know, being able to secure each one of these independently, for example, on the device side, how do you identify each device uniquely and how do you authenticate it back into the back end? 2:56 You know, that's, that's critical. 2:58 So we've got some solutions around, uh, uh, you know, using, uh, the SIM card not only to authenticate back into your network resource, but also back into, say, your AWS application, for example, right? 3:11 And, uh, the next layer is the connectivity layer, which is very important, uh, mainly because your IoT devices are not going to be very easily accessible. 3:20 They're, they're, you know, all over the globe possibly when, when for larger companies or, you know, you spread out across cities if it's a smart cities, uh, type deployment. 3:28 So connectivity becomes very important, and providing secure connectivity, you know, that's AT&T's bread and butter, but that becomes a very, uh, uh, you know, integral part of your end-to-end security architectures, right? 3:40 And finally, your, uh, you know, I shouldn't say finally. 3:42 Well, the data application layer, which is sitting most likely in the cloud, as we can talk about, uh, further, but most likely in the cloud, that needs to be secured too, because that is the central location where all your devices and all your IoT solutions are pushing data to, and that's where, you know, the actual value of your IoT solution lies. 4:02 So securing that becomes key. 4:04 And, uh, finally, we can take all of these three layers and wrap it with, uh, something like a threat detection or a threat protection solution, uh, with which you can add some collaborative security between the layers and combining all of these together to provide that end-to-end, uh, security. 4:21 You know, we recently acquired AlienVault, um, and so with, uh, on, on the IoT side, you know, I'm really excited because we're taking their existing, uh, you know, very strong security threat detection platform and pivoting that or adding really the IoT use cases to it so that we can quickly launch that in the IoT space as well. 4:40 So, so th-- uh, you know, taking s-this approach, I think is very critical for any digital transformation, for any enterprise of any size. 4:48 They really have to understand the IoT architecture and sort of define their strategy around it rather than directly using their existing IT strategies. 4:59 Let's talk about that because you talked about where AT&T's bread and butter is. You talked about the cloud being a center location. Then you talk about threat detection with AlienVault. 5:10 So there's, like, some really critical points that you touched on. 5:13 So I wanna kinda pick on each of those a little bit because I think one of the things that happens, and I was talking about, is we have a lot of C-level executives, and you even have it in your own AT&T report, that we get a lot of them that don't understand what they need to share. 5:29 And so I think a lot of companies make costly mistakes when they consider IT-- IoT security. So we have to kinda look at what are the things they have to do first. 5:40 And I think they try to bite off more than they can chew, and then they don't do anything right, and that's when there's too many errors along the way. 5:48 So can you give us some key tips that companies need to do when they're looking at to help companies avoid those mistakes right away so that they look at the right things first and then st-- and, and implement a right IoT security strategy?Sure. 6:06 Sure, Peggy. You know, I think, you know, like I mentioned, um, I think the first thing is really understanding what IoT is, right? 6:14 And, and again, it begins like you, like you said, you hit, you hit the nail on the head, right? It begins at that C-level. 6:20 Those, uh, uh, le-- That leadership level needs to understand that there are some differences between IoT and IT, or I should say many differences between IoT and IT. 6:31 And, and that has to propagate down, uh, you know, all the way down to the working level, right? 6:36 So the primary mistake that we in AT&T have seen most of our or many of our enterprise customers make is that they start deploying IoT without really understanding that difference. 6:48 So usually what happens is, uh, you know, the C-level executives get together, they say, "All right, we gotta do... Let's just take, for example, a smart building deployment," right? 6:57 Uh, they pull in their existing IT team, and they say, "Hey, go build out a, uh, smart building solution." So that IT team will use its existing skill sets with, with, with people, right? 7:08 And use the existing tools to go out and build their IoT solution. 7:13 But what they've, uh, what-- The mistake they've made there is that they have not really, uh, uh, included the new challenges, the new security challenges that IoT brings about, right? 7:22 Uh, for example, we'll, you know, we'll, we can talk about the three layers. If you start at the devices, uh, you know, the devices are not standard at all, right? 7:31 A smart building solution might have a thermostat that is very low power, but it might have a camera that is much higher power. But how do you manage both of these with a set of existing tools? 7:41 That's, that's near impossible. 7:43 There's, you know, there's this heterogeneous nature of the hardware as well as the operating systems and the software on these devices that makes this very difficult to manage using, you know, some existing, uh, uh, you know, uh, enterprise mobility management tool, right? 7:58 So that's, that, that's very difficult. The second challenge is these devices are gonna be having a very long life cycle, right? 8:05 A standard IT device averages around three to five years, uh, and then, you know, they're completely replaced. But they're all standard devices. 8:13 They run on standard OS, they have standard hardware, everything can be standardized. But in IoT, uh, those life cycles are much, much longer, ten, fifteen years, right? 8:22 It's just put it, put it out there and forget about it as long as it's not causing havoc on, uh, to the company. And then, uh, you know, location, right? 8:30 The, the IT teams are usually centralized, uh, the ops teams especially, but IoT deployments, again, as we talked about, can be global, can be national. It's very, very spread about. 8:41 So essentially, these enterprises, uh, uh, you know, right from the beginning handicap themselves because they're not using the right set of s- tools to, to deploy IoT. 8:51 So I think, uh, you know, uh, before they begin, once they start their idea or concept of deploying IoT inside their industry, they have to build a strategy where they understand the IoT, uh, um, uh, ecosystem, the challenges that it brings, specifically from the security perspective, and then define almost a, uh, a, you know, a security design life cycle where they're able to define the risks at the very beginning of the deployment. 9:21 They build solutions to mitigate that risk and then include that as part of their, you know, production design. So, so I think starting from day one is, is very important with IoT deployments. 9:32 But can you do that in a world today when they've already... What you just described, you already have global companies that have different things in place. 9:43 I mean, do you start with throwing the baby out with the bathwater? 9:47 I mean, because we already see companies operating in these very disparate systems and very disparate operations, and you're kind of hodpo- hodge- hodgepodgeing things together. 9:59 Are they able to go back and say, "We're gonna kinda piecemeal things"? Or do you say, "I've gotta start from scratch"? 10:06 How do you get them to think, "We're going to revamp what we've been doing all along," and say, "We've gotta rethink things differently," and get a mindset that says, "We can't do the way we've been doing it all along, and now we've gotta think..." 10:20 Because, I mean, your own n- research, I mean, eighty percent have been breached. I mean, it's still happening out there. It's, it's a phenomenal number to think we all know this- Mm-hmm. 10:32 -yet we have such a astronomical number of breaches still going on. Uh, Peggy, I, I think it all starts with education again. 10:42 And that was one of the main reasons we, we, uh, you know, put out that, uh, cybersecurity insights report that was focused on, uh, IoT security. I think it came out a, a few quarters ago. 10:54 But it was focused on IoT security and, and, and the target aud-audience for it was really the C-level, right? Because at the working level, those decisions are very hard to make, right? 11:03 There's a lot of factors like cost, time, resources that come into play, which the C-level, uh, has-- uh, C-level leadership team has to decide on. 11:12 And so we at AT&T have put a lot of effort into not only developing these IoT security solutions for our customers, but also an entire, uh, education program where we can go talk to our customers and, uh, educate them at the C-level and, you know, close to that level about what are, w-what is the risks they are taking if they don't follow a good, uh, IoT deployment strategy. 11:36 And, you know, the insights report is one example. We also have an IoT security, uh, uh, alliance as well, where we're working with several partners to, to sort of broaden that thought leadership and education. 11:47 Uh, and, and we're working with many, um, uh, uh, you know, standards bodies as well. 11:52 So, so we're doing a lot of stuff to educate our customers first on why they need a separate IoT strat-- security strategy compared to just what, uh, you know, the standard strategy that they have today.So let's talk about if you have legacy applications that need to be managed and moved to the cloud, because that's, I guess what I'm thinking about, and, and maybe I'm not articulating this properly because that's where I'm-- Do we need to change our thinking as well with that? 12:18 You've given a lot of ideas here, but I'm-- I keep going back in my mind, I guess, to manufacturing because they're not starting from this from the beginning. 12:26 They're thinking we've got a lot of legacy types of things and, you know. And if so, does cybersecurity come into play as well with that? 12:35 Because I again think, you know, you're, you're, you're not gonna start from scratch in that area. You're gonna work with legacy. 12:41 You're going to try to figure out how to do things, and you don't start from the beginning. So how do you, how do you work with that when you're bringing things together? I know there's smart cities. 12:51 We're talking about things like that, but how do you do it in that area? You're right. 12:56 Like industrial manufacturing, uh, you know, uh, most of my horror stories for customer security issues probably come from that space, [laughs] right? 13:03 So, uh, you know, we went out to visit one of our, uh, connected car customer manufacturing plants, and they wanted to connect, you know, that factory. 13:11 But what we found was a lot of these systems are running, uh, you know, Windows ninety-five, right? That was a shock. This was a couple years ago, so it's not, uh, you know, long ago. 13:19 Do we even have any of those in place? Windows ninety-five, really? 13:23 [laughs] But that's what these, uh, industrial control systems are running because, you know, it works, and they're not gonna upgrade it any, a-any further, right? So, so in those cases, you're absolutely right, right? 13:32 We can't throw everything out the window and start from scratch. 13:35 But what you can do is, again, use that multilayered strategy to say, "Okay, uh, you know, uh, I've got my endpoint devices," which are these ICS systems, for example, right? 13:45 "And now what type of connectivity do I need to mitigate my risk to get the data off of these devices back into some cloud provider," right? 13:54 And so, so, uh, that, that risk assessment and risk mitigation process is still going to have to be done, whether it's a completely new design or, you know, moving an existing design into the, you know, connected space. 14:07 So, so that's, that's inevitable. But once you have that multilayered, uh, strategy, you can manage your risk, right? There's never gonna be a situation where you have zero risk. 14:18 But what you can do is, uh, uh, you know, manage your risk so that, uh, you know that your endpoint layer is probably the most vulnerable while the other layers are secure. 14:30 So, uh, you know, any, you know, additional, uh, um, investments that are being made for, for, for your deployment can be focused in that area as well, right? 14:39 And that, that sort of leads us into that cyber insurance space as well because now that you have your risk assessment, you can then decide, you know, what type of cyber insurance you want, how much you need. 14:50 Uh, you know, so, so, so sort of all sort of melds together from this design process to that deployment process. Does that make sense? Okay. 14:56 So now, now you throw out the cyber insurance thing, and I gotta ask 'cause I don't understand the cyber insurance because I'm, I'm afraid people are using cyber insurance in the wrong way. 15:07 Are they using cyber insurance to still as a band-aid, thinking that they need cyber insurance and they don't have to do the right things to, to invest in cybersecurity? 15:18 I mean, I, I just wonder if cyber insu-insurance is being used in the wrong way instead of the right way. Are they using it properly? 15:28 You know, uh, honestly, I, uh, it's, it's a very new, um, uh, you know, offering that, that is available in the market, right? So, so right away, you're, you're right. Customers are not using it the right way. 15:42 When, when, uh, you know, the cybersecurity companies, AT&T included, uh, uh, started offering, uh, cyber insurance, the idea was really to incentivize companies to invest in, uh, cyber defense, right? 15:57 So, so the, the whole idea of, uh, cyber insurance essentially is to come do a assessment, a risk assessment of your deployment, right? Identify areas where, uh, you have exposure, uh, right? 16:12 And then put that down into different buckets. There could be a financial bucket, uh, uh, you know, and that financial bucket could be legal costs, uh, response costs, data loss costs. 16:22 And then, you know, you also have other, uh, buckets like resources, things like that. 16:27 So, so basically you get a risk assessment, and then you tell that enterprise, "Hey, uh, you know, you know, if you-- you're not gonna-- We're not gonna just give you cyber insurance because you guys are completely insecure. 16:39 Here's the areas you guys need to go fix and secure so that we can then offer you cyber insurance," right? Like, the companies offering cyber insurance are not gonna take a huge risk on that company themselves. 16:50 So, so really, you know, it was about quantifying that risk and then offering some incentives to, uh, to invest in cyber defense. But companies really are not looking at it that way, right? 17:01 Uh, companies, uh, have limited budgets, and they say, "Hey, I can either do cyber insurance or I can do cyber investment, and we're gonna get breached anyway, so let's go cyber insurance," which is really the wrong way to go about, uh, doing things. 17:13 So- That's- So I think- But that's crazy. Sorry. 17:15 That's just, to me-- If twenty-eight percent of your research is saying they're using insurance as a substitute for investment in cyber defense, then they're asking to be hacked. I'm just sorry. 17:27 That just says to me, "Open the door, bad guys. Hey, guess what? We'll just pay for it later." That's just insane to me. That's the re-most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It absolutely is. Right. Right. 17:38 So because that insurance is only gonna come into play in the worst case that a breach happens, right? 17:44 And so with our-- what we've done here at AT&T is whenever a customer brings up the topic of cyber insurance, we start off with, "Hey, let's, let's go back to design. 17:53 Let's talk about what you guys have and what you need to do to reduce and mitigate your risk. And then we can come back to cyber insurance." 18:01 Because Peggy, at the end of the day, you and I both know there is never a hundred percent secure system, right? 18:06 Every system is going to have some vulnerabilities, but it's really about managing that risk.And so the cyber insurance is just another tool in, uh, you know, that company's CSO, uh, pocket to manage that risk. 18:21 It-- By-- A-and, and that, that again comes back to education, right? We have to educate customers that, "Hey, this isn't your solution for, uh, uh, IoT security, but this is just another tool in your IoT security belt." 18:35 I'm sorry. Who's ever in charge of those companies who are making these decisions shouldn't be in charge of those companies. 18:40 I don't know who's [laughing] in charge, but those are bad decisions because you're just leaving the door open for all of these bad guys to say, "Hey, you know what? 18:48 I'm gonna hack you, and then I hope, you know, everybody's records are out there, all those informations." Because we have great security systems now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 18:57 You guys and others are doing really wonderful things. So I guess the problem is we always know we're vulnerable. You just described what the problem is. 19:04 We, we understand that, but there's things we can do that we didn't know before. I mean, like what you're just describing. 19:10 So I guess let's, let's talk about the positive 'cause I-- we have, we have still some time, and I wanna talk about the strategies behind this. 19:17 There's training programs, there's workshops, there's so many things companies can do today that we didn't even know, let's say, two years ago, three years ago. 19:25 Why aren't companies taking that money and saying, "Let's find the right people"? 19:30 Because there are really good schools and opportunities to roll out the proper phases to put some money behind insurance, but also some money behind finding the right talent to put security systems in place and having the right technology in place. 19:45 'Cause it's, it's a, it's a double-edged sword, right? I mean, you're doing both. Correct. Correct. 19:51 And, and, and, you know, uh, uh, I know I keep harping on this, but, you know, it essentially goes back to the same fact, right? Most companies don't see that difference between IoT and IT, right? 20:00 To them, it's just another technical solution or piece that needs to be deployed, so, hey, it goes to my, you know, senior vice president of IT deployment, right? 20:09 And, and, uh, uh, uh, you know, if, if, if all you have is a hammer, uh, you know, all you see is nails, right? 20:15 So these, these teams continue to go down that same path of, uh, existing solutions, existing tools, um, a-and, and they-- because they don't understand that difference, they don't see the need to go get additional education or go acquire additional tools. 20:31 So, so that is, that is a huge gap in, in IoT today. But, you know, really, IoT is still in its infancy, right? 20:38 We-we've talked about that huge number of fifty, sixty billion devices, uh, in the next few years, but that hockey stick shaped curve hasn't really happened yet. 20:47 It's going to very soon, uh, and unless these companies quickly realize that, "Hey, we-- IoT is a different beast compared to what we have today, let's go start a new IoT security strategy in order to keep ourselves safe," it's gonna be, uh, it's gonna be chaos when, when, when that boom actually happens. 21:06 So but, but, you know, it, it has to start at the top. The C-level has to understand. And, and, and Peggy, as we're meeting with our customers now, as we go to these trade shows or conferences, 21:16 I think slowly that awareness is coming, especially at the, the upper end with larger, uh, cor-corporations and enterprises. They, they're really getting it. 21:26 But it's, it's all the way at the, at the other end of the spectrum, those small, medium level businesses that don't have, uh, the budgets or don't have the people to, uh, uh, uh, you know, to build out these strategies. 21:38 That's where I think the risk is, is, is high. But there's, uh, you know, a lot of consulting services. 21:45 There's, uh, you know, AT&T itself offers professional services for security design and, you know, not just, you know, put-putting out our products, but, uh, those services are, are, uh, available from several security providers. 21:57 So I think for these smaller and medium businesses, that's kind of where they have to go because education and, uh, uh, um, uh, you know, new tools isn't gonna solve it for them. 22:08 They'll still need help from companies like AT&T to, uh, to secure their IoT solutions. 22:14 But you guys have even talked about you've got-- you're working with Ericsson on IoT s-cybersecurity device certification programs, and I think even looking forward, what's your predictions, though? 22:25 I mean, because industry's working together. It has to work together to keep the bad guys out. I mean, that's why things are changing. It's not about that you all have to be competitive anymore. You are in some ways. 22:37 Mm-hmm. The industry has to be competitive, but you also as an industry have to find out ways to, to keep the bad guys at bay. 22:43 So talk about your predictions where cybersecurity is headed in the future because I think as an industry, we all have to work together to keep the bad guys away. I mean, that's something too, right? 22:56 That, that, that's very true, right? And, and there's a lot of work going on in that, uh, in that space. The CTIA example you mentioned is one, right? They brought together, um... 23:05 CTIA brought together, um, several carriers, uh, in North America and outside, uh, the U.S. as well, uh, to, to get together and define a IoT device testing strategy, right? 23:17 Because today, uh, uh, you know, you, you can put any device on any network as long as, uh, you know, you get a SIM card or some connectivity, uh, to access that network, right? 23:28 Uh, and, and, uh, most of these devices ha- don't have any security built into it, right? Most devices don't have the default admin passwords changed on them, right? 23:38 That's why that whole Mirai, uh, botnet attack happened, took down, you know, the, the DNS service with huge impacts, right? And it was something as simple as somebody didn't change a password on the device. 23:48 So, so, uh, um, you know, that CTIA effort is very specific to that. But w- you know, there's, there's a greater effort, not just in the cellular region. 23:57 We're, we're working with the GSMA organization to develop end-to-end IoT security requirements and validation. That's something we've put out. 24:05 But within each industry or within each vertical, there is a lot of collaboration going on as well. 24:10 There is a Auto-ISAC, there is a Airline ISAC, and all of these are really-Specific to IoT within their each in, within each industry, right? Before, um, we need... 24:22 There, there really isn't a st- there, there isn't any standards around IoT, and there's not a lot of regulation. 24:28 And so I think before we get too much restrictive regulation, uh, enforced, I think it's always in the best interest of the industries to get together to understand and define what they have to do in order to prevent, uh, and secure themselves really. 24:44 We've got just about a minute left to go here, but how do you see emerging technologies like blockchain playing a role in IoT security? Well, you know, I- IoT, again, is all about data collection, right? 24:57 That's, that's why there's millions and soon billions of IoT devices out there collecting data for us. 25:02 And so, uh, you know, uh, in addition to blockchain, we'll talk about blockchain, but, you know, machine learning and AI are becoming very critical for IoT and for IoT security as well, right? 25:12 So because these, these devices and applications are not just collecting their IoT specific data, but there's a lot of security data that we can gather off of these devices as well. 25:22 And so using, uh, for example, uh, you know, machine learning and then AI to, uh, uh, to define what the behavior of an IoT device is, and if it changes its behavior, hey, you know, uh, it could potentially be, uh, you know, infected or ha-have some issues, right? 25:38 So there's a lot of app-applicability of technology like ML and AI. But blockchain specifically is, is, is gonna be very important, right? It's a, it's a perfect fit there because it's all about data. 25:49 But, but the problem with blockchain, again, is gonna be that, uh, it's very resource intensive, whereas IoT devices are very, uh, uh, you know, low power devices. 25:57 So, so there's newer, um, you know, you know, blockchain architectures being defined, uh, for IoT that, uh, make use of the core fundamentals of blockchain, but then are a lot less, uh, resource intensive. 26:10 Uh, so, so I think those are gonna come into play, uh, pretty big in, in, in the IoT space. 26:15 We recently did a, uh, a pilot or a proof of concept with Ericsson, uh, in the connected car space where we're using blockchain to, uh, uh, uh, remotely attest, uh, uh, firmware updates down to the car, right? 26:27 So, so we're still able to bring in a lot of the- Senthil, we're out of time. Oh, sorry. We're out of time, but I wanna tell you. Senthil Ramamurthy, thank you so much. 26:36 Lead member of the technical staff of AT&T and IoT organization. Thank you so much for being with us. I hope you'll come back. Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Peggy. All right. We're out of time. Stick around. 26:47 We've got more to come right here on the Peggy Smedley Show, the podcast for voice of IoT and relevant technology. Be right back. [upbeat music] Signal to noise, an electronic term with new relevance on the internet. 27:03 Connected World Media cuts through the noise of data overload and finds you the signal of important information, information that will keep you current and aware of context in the internet of things. 27:14 Peggy Smedley shares her insights on The Peggy Smedley Show and in Connected World magazine, all online at connectedworld.com. Stay current and competitive at connectedworld.com. 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