Transcript 0:01 So let's talk about sustainability for a bit. So this has been, um, a focal point of Carbon for, uh, for several years now. 0:08 And, um, you know, like any process, there's a lot of aspects to it where you can look across it and say, you know, "Hey, there's lots of room for improvement and there's lots of, of ways to do things a bit better here." 0:19 And so Carbon has identified several areas. Um, you know, the first I'll just... 0:24 Since we were talking about the, the, the Adidas running shoe, um, the, the first I'll talk about is in th-this area of what are called bio-based materials. 0:32 And so, you know, broadly speaking, in the chemical industry, there's sort of two sources primarily for the building blocks of your chemicals. 0:40 A major one is petroleum, and so we, we, you know, pull oil out of the ground and then convert, um, those types of products into, uh, building blocks. 0:49 [upbeat music] Welcome back to The Peggy Smedley Show, your voice for our connected world, with your host, Peggy Smedley. Hello, listeners, and welcome back to The Peggy Smedley Show. 1:06 I'm your host, Peggy Smedley. My next guest is tasked with creating the broadest possible range of materials for growing 3D objects and Carbon's DLS technology. 1:16 Previously, he served as senior director of research at Diagnostics for All, and he's also co-founded Liquidia Technologies today. He owns over 25 current and pending patents. 1:27 Please welcome Jason Rollin, Senior VP of Materials at Carbon. Jason, welcome to the show. Thanks, Peggy. Great to be here. So Jason, we have a lot to talk about. 1:38 This is an exciting time in, in the space to be in, and you guys have been doing a lot of things. 1:43 I would love for you to tell me a little bit about Carbon before we start, but then share about, you know, 3D printing technology, you know, and, and basically how the use of materials can create the sustainable, which I love, you know, uh, basically c-consumer products. 2:00 I think most of us are trying to understand that, and there's nobody better to talk about it than you. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so Carbon is a, a 3D printing company. 2:10 Um, we manufacture, uh, hardware, software, and materials products. 2:15 Um, and, you know, our goal is to really enable designers, engineers, makers of all sorts, uh, to, um, you know, take ideas that they might have and make them a reality. 2:26 And we have a, a suite of products, uh, software, hardware, materials products that, uh, enable people to do that. 2:34 Um, from the very beginning of the company, we were asking the, the hard question in 3D printing, which is, why isn't 3D printing a, um, a go-to manufacturing technology, and why has it been stuck in, in a prototyping land and, and use case for so long? 2:51 And we identified, you know, two major problems that were preventing that from happening. One was the speed of printing. Um, you know, 3D, there's, there's a lot of different types of 3D printers. 3:02 Some of them can take... You know, it's not uncommon to, for a, a part to take one to two days or more to print. Um, and, uh, and that's a real problem if you wanna take something into a, a manufacturing environment. 3:15 The second problem, uh, was around materials, which is w- my background. I'm a, a polymer scientist by training. 3:21 And, um, you know, looking at the landscape of available 3D printing materials, especially comparing to other manufacturing technologies like injection molding, there's a, a, there was a lack of high-performance materials suitable for end-use parts. 3:36 And so Carbon set out with this, with this mission to kind of solve these problems and more, and, uh, and take 3D printing into, into manufacturing, and I, I'd say we've done that rather successfully. 3:48 These are really, a-as I said in my first question, exciting times because there's so many products we want to create. You know, when we think about 3D, digital twin, what manufacturers can do. 4:00 Talk to me about the products. When I look at you right now, you have a lot of them, you know, behind you on the shelf. 4:05 Talk to me just specifically about some examples, because I think that's how other manufacturers can learn about the possibilities, when you can share really great customer examples, and I know you have many. Yeah. 4:18 So, uh, let me first start by just some of the broad categories of, um, why you would wanna use a 3D printer for manufacturing, um, 'cause it, it, it's not applicable for everything. 4:29 Um, but, but three big categories that I think are useful. One is this idea of really shrinking the product development cycle, and so what I mean by that is right now, um, go back to that designer, engineer, maker. 4:43 What they have to do right now, they have an idea in their head, and they'll maybe design that part in a, in a CAD file, um, and then they might do some prototyping with, uh, you know, traditional 3D printers and, and kind of go through a fit and function type of exercise. 4:58 And then they might go to, "Okay, now I need to think about validation." And so then they might start to, you know, cut their tooling for injection molding and, and, and go down that path. 5:09 But once they've locked their tooling, that's it. Like, that's a very expensive process and, and, and, and equipment, and once they've locked that, y-you're not changing that part again. 5:20 Um, and so you have this kind of, uh, disjointed process of not having a common platform or even a common set of tools for going through that product development process. 5:31 And if you have a platform like Carbon, we have software products that help you do that design. 5:35 We have printers that help you go through your functional prototyping stage, and then we've built out factories that can enable mass production of your part, um, if that, if that's your goal. 5:46 And you're doing it all on the exact same platform with the exact same set of tools, and there's a, a built-in flexibility there. So one big use case is shortening the, the product development cycle. 5:56 Second big use case is in mass customization.And so you think about things like in the dental world. So, uh, think about things like a night guard, for example. 6:06 That is, uh, doing, you know, these sort of N equal to one, uh, type of parts where it's, it's custom for you. That is very difficult to do, uh, with other manufacturing processes. 6:17 So we're all familiar with the old way of doing dental products where they stick the, the silicone goop in your mouth and, and nobody really enjoys that. 6:25 Um, and now we're entering into this really exciting stage of digital dentistry where you have a scanner that goes inside your mouth and, and can scan your teeth, and from there you have a digital file that I can now make all sorts of different products in the dental space. 6:40 And there's many other examples of this kind of, um, you know, mass customization type of approach. 6:45 It could be orthotics, could be lots of different products, eyeglasses, earbuds, lots of different products that are interacting with, uh, with various parts of your body. So mass customization is another big use case. 6:58 And then we have this other area that I'm, I'm incredibly excited about, which we call, um, impossible geometries, um, which basically means it's impossible to make these geometries with any other technology. 7:09 So for example, lattice structures. 7:11 So we're all familiar with lattice structures when we look at, you know, bridges or architecture type of, of, uh, of geometries where you have, you know, these sort of unit cells that are repeating with, with different types of sizes and struts and, and these types of things. 7:26 Um, it, it's not possible to mold those types of structures, and you have to make them by additive manufacturing processes. 7:34 And so, um, that enables customers, our customers and their customers to design parts that haven't been made before. 7:42 And so coupling all that with fast print speeds and, and, you know, production quality materials allows you to make parts like you've never made before. 7:50 And so, um, in that category, one of the examples, um, that, that Carbon's maybe best known for is our collaboration with Adidas, where, um, one of the areas that's exciting to, uh, apply these lattice structures is in, uh, footwear, um, and in particular, uh, running footwear. 8:07 And so we've been partnering with Adidas since, uh, 2016 or so, uh, to develop a new, um, line of products for them that they call 4D, uh, that, that leverage the combination of fast print speeds, uh, production relevant print speeds, um, high quality elastomeric materials, um, that can compete and, and compete with the foam products that are typically used, and these really cool designs, which we've had a, a, several iterations of, of these lattice structures, uh, that are made of these elastomer products. 8:39 And so that has enabled multiple generations of, of new products, the latest of which is, uh, what, what Adidas calls 4D Forward. 8:48 And it's this really cool idea that, again, is only possible with lattice structures where they can translate, uh, vertical force into horizontal motion. 8:56 So as the runner steps down, the shoe kind of nudges forward a couple millimeters, and it, it kind of leads to this really cool, um, you know, kind of forward push momentum feeling as you're, you're walking and running in the shoes. 9:09 So that's just, that's just one example. It's a very good example, and it's, uh, it's been a tremendous success for Carbon. You know, I think we're just at the very beginning of what, what we can do with this technology. 9:18 So yeah, happy to dive into other examples as well. So basically you're helping the runners and the athletes move a little faster, move a little differently. It's kind of fun all the things you do. 9:26 But my mind was spinning hearing you talk is, is I can think of things you could do like on railroads. You know, the ability to do things faster, quicker. 9:35 Imagine, you know, what Henry Ford could have done creating mass production on the Model T. I mean, I just was, my mind- Right... 9:41 was racing on what you could produce things quicker, let alone not the horrible things people wanna do with 3D, but the really progressive things. 9:51 And I think that was a, a, you know, because we don't like the goop when we go to... I just went and, you know, got a mouth guard, and they still did the goop, you know? It's just not the things you want. 9:59 I wish they would've had that equipment. It would've saved me a lot of time from an hour later going, "Why is that still in my mouth?" You know? It's... There- Right. There are so many cool things that are out there. 10:08 So looking at that for manufacturing that says it, you know, there's so many benefits, the thinking outside, where we're thinking about a shoe, but I'm thinking like, "Look, you know, infrastructure in a whole new way of doing things faster, quicker. 10:21 How do we build buildings or, or homes or whatever might be done to take it to that next level of things that can be repeatable?" And that's what you just described. Those are the things that we have to look- Totally... 10:34 at 3D so much more. Is, is that what your mind when you race and think about the things that you can help manufacturing with? 10:41 Yeah, and I, I think you're, you're hitting on a, a really interesting idea, which is, um, you know, a lot of engineers and designers, this is new technology, and they're, um, you know, especially in dental schools, they, they are trained, uh, oftentimes on the old way of doing things. 10:57 Um, and so it, it takes time for, to train that next generation of designers and engineers to think in this way and realize that this is now possible. 11:06 You know, another really exciting use case that we've had for these lattice structures, again, the, these, these objects that haven't been able to be made before, is in the area of protection. 11:15 And so we have, um, a, a series of products in football helmets and hockey helmets and other protective gear that now I can take a, an energy absorbing elastomer, so think of something like memory foam that sort of, you know, uh, absorbs that, that, that impact, and I can design lattice structures that also work i, you know, in tandem with that material to maximize the amount of energy that it's absorbing and distribute it away from, uh, you know, from your head, uh, for example. 11:45 And so there's this whole area that, that we call performance and protection that, that we're, where we're using these types of structures and engaging with customers to design new products. 11:54 But yeah, I think, uh, one of my favorite things about Carbon is just the range of different industries that, uh, that we get to interact with. It's, uh, it, it's truly astonishing. 12:03 Anytime you can help and prevent a concussion, you know, I, I think like that where you're talking about football helmets or whatever, you know, that absorption that you talk about is exciting because we want- Yeah... 12:14 everyone and athletes to be safer, whatever it might be. 12:16 I mean, taking the range of what you can do I think is exciting because-There's so many products that we have to do, and to take those products and use the materials to be more sustainable, more, uh, uh, absorb it in different ways. 12:30 I mean, is that what you're doing, the quality, the performance, the sustainability? Are those the things that you're thinking about when you look at 3D? Is that where your mind goes to? Yeah, absolutely. 12:41 So, so let's talk about sustainability for a bit. So this has been, um, a focal point of Carbon for, uh, for several years now. 12:48 And, um, you know, like any process, there's a lot of aspects to it where you can look across it and say, you know, "Hey, there's lots of room for improvement, and there's lots of, of ways to do things a bit better here." 12:59 And so Carbon has identified several areas. Um, you know, the first I'll just... 13:04 Since we were talking about the, the, the Adidas running shoe, um, the, the first I'll talk about is in th-this area of what are called bio-based materials. 13:12 And so, you know, broadly speaking, in the chemical industry, there's sort of two sources primarily for the building blocks of your chemicals. A major one is petroleum. 13:22 And so we, we, you know, pull oil out of the ground and then convert, um, those types of products into, uh, building blocks for various, uh, chemicals and, and materials. 13:31 Um, but increasingly, uh, there's, there's this idea of using nature and natural processes, uh, to also generate those same building blocks. 13:41 And so, um, you know, one example is, uh, this polyurethane material, um, that we call EPU 44. Um, this is our second generation elastomer that we've used in our partnership with Adidas. 13:54 And, um, you know, we've been able to incorporate about 40% by weight of, of, uh, you know, within the formulation, about 40% of that is derived, uh, from corn. 14:04 And so this is a, a product, uh, made by a company called DuPont Tate & Lyle, and, uh, they make a, a building block for polyurethane, uh, that they call Sustara that is ultimately derived from sugars that come from corn. 14:17 And so now you're basically using CO2 in the air and sunshine to make your plants, and then your plants are making your, uh, building blocks for your raw materials. 14:28 And then through a series of conversion processes, I can incorporate those into our formulation. And so that has pretty significant impacts on the overall carbon footprint for the generation of those materials. 14:41 Um, and so this area of bio-based raw materials is something we're paying attention very closely to and have used in, in several products now. Um, so that's one big piece. We've also done a lot of work in, uh... 14:52 One of, one of the kind of the dirty secrets of 3D printing is, um, the post-processing and, you know, so it's really fun to imagine, uh, these parts coming out of these printers. 15:01 But, you know, in our case, it's a liquid-based printer, uh, that, that's based on, on patterned UV light. And so the parts come out, and they're dripping with resin, and you need to clean the part somehow. 15:12 And so the standard way has been to kind of dunk that part in a, an organic solvent like, uh, isopropanol, so rubbing alcohol, uh, that you would have in your house, um, and, uh, and sort of wash the part and then clean it and then, you know, move on. 15:27 But now you're, you're left with, uh, w-what, what needs to be treated as hazardous waste. And so I have to dispose of that somehow. 15:34 Um, that costs money, it's expensive, and it's also not the greatest thing for, for the environment. 15:38 And so Carbon has developed completely solvent-free cleaning processes for our, you know, products that are made of liquid resins. 15:47 And so w-w-we develop these, um, basically giant spinners that we can put the build platforms in. 15:54 Um, and this, this machine will spin the parts and kind of fling the excess resin to the walls where it can then be collected and then reused. 16:02 Uh, sort of like how your washing machine works when it goes into spin mode, it kind of, you know, squishes all the water out of it. 16:08 Um, and this has turned out to be extremely helpful for us as we go to mass production because it not only helps us solve a, a major, you know, sustainability issue, but it's also an economic issue where, you know, it costs a lot of money. 16:21 You're wasting resin. You're developing, uh, hazardous waste that has to be disposed of. And so this was, you know, a, a critical problem for us to solve. 16:30 And, and fortunately, we have really clever engineers, uh, who developed the, this hardware and then software to do this. 16:36 Uh, so th-those are a couple of examples of where, you know, we're thinking, uh, uh, heavily about sustainability. And I think this is what... 16:43 We're running out of time, but Jason, I think what's exciting about this is you're, you're looking at new ways to develop, you're looking at new ways to be sustainable, and you're thinking about the future. 16:51 And when we think about the next generation of manufacturers and the, the next generation of workers, they're gonna be really excited about what you're doing and being able to work with you. 17:01 So Jason Rollins, Senior Vice President of Materials at Carbon, thank you so much for spending time with me. Where can our listeners go to talk to you and, and figure out how they can be a partner with you? Yeah. 17:11 So there's a lot of great content on our website at, uh, carbon3d.com. 17:16 Um, I would encourage people to read some of the case studies because that's really where you can get the best feel for the types of products and, and problems that we're able to solve. All right, Jason. 17:25 Thank you so much. All right, listeners, that's all the time we have for our show today. Make sure to share and subscribe to our episodes each week. 17:31 As always, you can share your thoughts with me on Twitter at ConnectedWorld. 17:35 Remember, we broadcast live every Tuesday at 12 PM Central, and check out our website at connectedworld.com, our show website at thepeggySmedleyShow.com. 17:43 And don't forget to tune in to the Project Sustainability Podcast at pspgreen.libsyn.com. This is The Peggy Smedley Show, your voice for our connected world. 17:52 And remember, with great technology comes great responsibility. Have an awesome week. [upbeat music]
