Transcript 0:00 [on-hold music] The whole economic system currently is a linear system. I mean, if you, for example, look at plastics, m- the majority of plastic is not recycled. 0:10 I think about only fourteen percent of all the, uh, plastics produced in the world is recycled. I mean, and that, that's a huge loss. 0:17 I mean, that, that loss goes into the, the billions of US dollars in terms of the economic loss. 0:22 But then we have the waste problem, and we have the issue of polluted seas, and we have, uh, you know, all these microplastics that end up in our own food chain through, through the fish that, that we eat, and all the kind of potential health implications that that has, and it's a huge waste of resources. 0:40 [upbeat music] Welcome back to The Peggy Smedley Show, the podcasting voice of IoT and digital transformation. Hello, listeners, and welcome back to The Peggy Smedley Show. 0:53 My next guest heads up the initiative that imagines an ocean in robust health with a vital economy. 0:59 It fosters a global conversation on the greatest challenges facing the seas, inspiring bold thinking, new partnerships, and with the most effective action to build a sustainable ocean economy with a focus on blue finance, innovation, and governance. 1:16 Previously, he led research projects in sustainability and global health on food sustainability, sustainable infrastructure, and global access to healthcare. 1:26 Please welcome Martin Kuring, head of The Economist Group's World Ocean Initiative. Martin, welcome to the show. Thanks a lot, Peggy. So Martin, we have a lot to talk about. 1:38 So I thought what we would do to get started is I would just have you define what is sustainability, and we can go from there. So why don't you do that? Sounds brilliant. 1:50 So yeah, so sustainability is a concept that's been around for quite a while. 1:53 And, um, you know, already in the late 1980s, the Brundtland Commission came up with this definition, which was really about sustainability in the context of sustainable development. 2:03 So it's really about meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. But since then, there have been lots of developments. 2:12 I mean, you m- might have heard of the sustainable development goals. 2:15 Uh, they're really like a set of targets, seventeen goals that are all interconnected that are about things like poverty, inequality, climate change, environmental degradation, even peace and justice. 2:24 I mean, because sustainability is such a, an interconnected, uh, topic, so really you have to think about many different dimensions. 2:31 And here at The Economist Group, we really look at, uh, sustainability in terms of these three dimensions, economic, social, and environmental. 2:38 And if I can just mention a couple of examples from the work we've done at The Economist Intelligence Unit is, uh, in terms of food and infrastructure, where we are very, uh, active. 2:46 Obviously, the ocean, you mentioned that I'm heading the World Ocean Initiative. 2:49 Um, but really, uh, for example, for food sustainability, if you look at these three dimensions, then you can really look at you need to have a food system that, uh, drives prosperity, you know. 2:59 It's all about sustainable investment, production, uh, innovation, uh, transport of food from, from the farm to the fork, and then you have food loss and waste are the biggest problems. 3:11 But then also, you know, this also has a social dimension. You know, you really, uh, have to nurture communities. 3:17 You have to provide access to land and land rights for women, for example, including young people into food production, educating people about what the best food is, and overnourishment and overweight. 3:29 As you know, it's a big problem with obesity, uh, being, being well widespread in many countries. You also have malnourishment in many places. 3:36 You have this paradox that you have both malnourishment in some parts of the world and overweight in other parts. So there's really like social dimension, but then you also have an environmental dimension. 3:45 You're preserving resource. And obviously this is, this is about things like climate change mitigation, uh, sustainable fisheries. 3:51 We work a lot in the World Ocean Initiative about, um, providing new ideas about aquaculture, for example, which can be, if the feed is sustained, much more sustainable than, uh, than fisheries because one third of fisheries are overfished. 4:05 It's also about diversification of agricultural systems and these kind of things. So really these three dimensions I call the economic, the social, and the environmental dimension of sustainability. 4:16 So let, let's, let's drill down that. So what is the social component if you were to drive through that? 4:24 So each one of those, then maybe that's what we have to do, if you have the social, the environmental, and even the financial component of sustainability. Mm-hmm. So I think that's what you just des- you talked about. 4:36 So if we looked at each one of those individually, and then I think if I even want... And I looked at, like the UN says the global water s- scarcity by twenty twenty-five will be in thirty nations. 4:47 In twenty fifty could impact fifty... five, five billion, if I, if I'm right about that number. Mm-hmm. 4:54 So if we look at that, and we talk about now meeting sustainability needs for, you know, seas, as you were talking about, there's so much about that. 5:03 So when you're talking, there's, there's a problem we have to look at for the business side of things. So we're putting all of this together. So if we do, now it talks about a circular economy. 5:15 That's what you just kind of brought together. So now- Mm-hmm... based on everything you just said, is this, part of this, why do we then need to think about reduce, reuse, recycle? 5:28 Because everything you just mentioned leads me to that point in this discussion. Is that correct? Yes, exactly, because the, the whole economic system currently is a linear system. 5:40 I mean, uh, you know, if you, for example, look at plastics, m- the majority of plastic is not recycled. I think about only fourteen percent of all the, uh, plastics produced in the world is recycled. 5:50 I mean, and that, that, that's a huge loss. I mean, that, that loss goes into the, the, the billions of US dollars in terms of the economic loss. 5:58 But then we have the waste problem, and we have-The issue of polluted seas, and we have, uh, you know, all these microplastics that end up in our own food chain through, uh, you know, through the fish that, that we eat, um, and all the kind of potential health implications that that has. 6:12 And it's a huge, w- you know, waste of resources. So if we s- stop, stop thinking about the economy as a linear way of you, you produce something, you consume something, and then you throw it away. 6:23 And a, a similar concept is with, with food waste. 6:26 Basically, there's a lot of people in this world that, that obviously don't have enough food, they're malnourished, but, but a lot of people in the developed world, they think about food as something that can be e- easily disposed of. 6:37 If we do think o- of, you know, limited resources... 6:40 I mean, we, on this planet we have limited resources, and if we look at it as we have to put those systems, th- these, these resources back into the system through a circular system, and the plastics issue is really a great example of how we can put that into practice. 6:55 So we really have to start designing products to be recycled and reused later on in their life cycle. So then let's talk about that. Why is plastics, or is plastics a circular economy problem specifically? 7:09 Yes, it definitely is because it's only 14% of all recycled, of all plastic is recycled. But that's what you said. But it goes in the ocean, right? 7:16 I mean, the problem is most of those plastics end up in the ocean, and now we're contaminating all the fish, and we're doing so many more things with it, correct? Mm-hmm. I mean, isn't that the bigger problem? 7:26 It's not only that, but we're contaminating our oceans with it. That's exactly right. So it, it ends up in the ocean and ends up back in our food systems with the microplastics. 7:37 And there is an organization that is called the Ellen MacArthur Foundation that has looked at circular economy solutions, and they have actually identified that, um, you know, rethinking products and packaging and delivery models is already a 10 billion US dollar opportunity. 7:54 So you could look at, for example, innovations like, uh, toothpaste tablets sold in cardboard boxes eli- that, that eliminates the need for plastic tubes, uh, changing the surface of mobile phone chargers from a glossy coating to a matte finish, um, and then you have all kinds of ideas about, uh, offering refills for detergent bottles at stores and these kind of things. 8:15 So we already know some of the solutions to prevent all that plastic waste. Obviously it's about implementation, but it's also about governance, you know, the regulations that governments implement. 8:25 So if we're looking at all this, 8:29 m- m- the business case, ag- going back to that again, do you see a growth trend toward more sustainability from a business perspective, or is it more of an environmental perspective that we need to be doing this? 8:44 Oh, this is definitely a business issue. 8:47 I mean, for example, if you look at, uh, the World Economic Forum, which is all about bringing business and policy and civil society together, the, for the first time ever in their Global Risk Report, which they publish every year, uh, they identified the top, all the top risks are related to the environment, and these are risks that affect everyone, particularly business as well. 9:07 So for example, the top risks they identified are extreme weather, climate action failure, natural disasters, biodiversity loss, and human-made environmental disasters. 9:18 I mean, there's a heat wave currently in the UK that, that we haven't seen for many years, and this is just another example, uh, of, you know, the environmental disasters being caused by, uh, you know, our inaction or lack of action. 9:31 So this is a business issue as well, and the Paris Climate Agreement for the first time tried to identify, uh, the goals that we need to reach to really make, uh, this planet, uh, habitable for future generations. 9:42 Uh, the SD- SDGs, uh, the Sustainable Development Goals, have started to bring awareness to this topic, including for business. 9:49 And it is a business issue because, uh, the, you know, ESG investment, environmental, social, governance investment, has been on the rise, and impact investment as well. 9:56 The global green bond market is a huge opportunity. It has reached 260 billion US dollars already in 2019. That's a new global record, and it's up 50% from 2018. 10:08 So already it's an investment opportunity to invest in these solutions. And we at the World Ocean Initiative, we have recently had a webinar where we asked our, uh, listeners what they think about the, the future. 10:19 Is it gonna be sustainable or not? And actually two-thirds of the audience thought that the post-coronavirus economic recovery is going to support a sustainable green blue transition. 10:29 So really there's an opportunity for business, and nine out of 10 investors are interested in blue finance. These are solutions that invest in the sustainable ocean economy according to a poll by Responsible Investor. 10:40 And then we also have like individuals, like you and me and others are thinking about, uh, where to, where to go on holiday once, you know, the restrictions from coronavirus are lifted. Right. 10:50 And 73% of holiday makers want to go into eco-friendly accommodation, for example. But Martin, you're... See, I, I'm not sure I'm following your statements now because here's the problem I'm having. 11:00 You're saying it's business, but that sounds like we're more concerned about our environment. So is that a business issue? 11:07 So why do we need to br- I think it sounds like you're saying to me, is it more we are, are, as a society have an issue with it, so we wanna make it... 11:16 Is that a business issue, or is that our environmental issues because we as consumers care about our environment? Or is it a business issue because businesses see they can benefit from it? Y- I, I... 11:29 Don't we need to make a separation, or are the two coming together now in why we need to bring business and economy together or environment together? Exactly. The, the, 11:39 uh, the latter definitely because they have to come together. I mean, the reality is that business will go where the best opportunities are to solve problems. But that's a different- Real problems. 11:47 Okay, but that's a different, that, that, that's something different. 11:50 So now your business is seeing the next generation or, or consumers care about the environment, so they're going where they think the opportunity is.Yes, exactly. 12:01 So, but consumer demand in environmental, um, issues is rising. 12:06 I mean, there was recently a poll by, um, by IBM that I think showed something like more than three-quarters of people that want to have products that are environmentally responsible, and they are ready to pay a premium for those products. 12:18 So there is this consumer demand. That is one aspect. But there is also the, the, the attracting talent. 12:24 I mean, even at, you know, at The Economist Group or any other business, people are very concerned about, uh, sustainability and, and environmental, social, and economic sustainability, and they will go and stay with companies that promote these issues. 12:36 So there was a poll also recently by Brita Professional of Millennials and Generation Z, uh, and they asked about their views, uh, of... on corporate social responsibility in the workplace. And they... 12:48 I think something like eighty-five or eighty-six percent of folks said that they would stay at a company, company longer if it reported back on its environmental impact. 12:55 And you might recently have heard about Amazon, where the, uh, you know, more than five thousand employees at Amazon sent an open letter to the chief executive, Jeff Bezos, saying that they, they demand the company to, uh, develop a climate plan. 13:09 So this is really more than just reacting to consumer demand. Uh, this is really reacting to the employee demand as well. 13:16 Martin Kuring, head of The Economist Group of, uh, Group's World Ocean Initiative, thank you for your time today. What's your URL so our listeners can learn more? Yes, of course. 13:28 So we have a free website, which is, uh, woi.economist.com, and we have lots of exciting content there, including videos, uh, films. 13:38 Uh, we have, uh, articles there on a regular basis about things like aquaculture or shipping, and we also have a new report which is about the sustainable ocean economy in twenty thirty. 13:47 It's kind of a visionary report about what kind of things have to be done by twenty thirty to really build the sustainable ocean economy. So thank you very much for having me on your show. Thank you so much. 13:57 All right, listeners, we're out of time. Remember, we are broadcast live every Tuesday at twelve PM Central. Check out our website at connectedworld.com, our show website at thepeggySmedleyShow.com. 14:07 As always, share your thoughts with me on Twitter and follow us @connectedwmag. All right, this is The Peggy Smedley Show, the podcasting voice of IoT and digital transformation. 14:16 And remember, with great technology comes great responsibility. Have an awesome week. [upbeat music]
